CBS News' Face The Nation, 11/19

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Sunday, November 19th

This week on "Face the Nation," host John Dickerson interviews Senator Tom Cotton, Representative Jackie Speier, and Director of the White House Office of Budget and Management Mick Mulvaney. Plus, our panel provides political analysis on allegations of sexual harassment and tax reform.


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Today on face the nation despite chaos in the capital over sexual harassment scandals tax cut legislation races through congress set a blistering pace. While senate Republicans made it clear they do not want Alabama's Roy Moore to join their club and obviously not. That division United States Canada. And we've looked at all the option. Prada. Prevent that from happening. Democrats confront a problem in their ranks. As former funnyman turned senator Al Franken is accused of inappropriate advances before he was elected. President stayed mum on more mister president Ali I want accusers. But took to Twitter and criticized Democrat Franken despite mr. Trump's own history and allegations from women citing improper conduct. No double standard here says white house Press Secretary Sara Sanders senator Franken has admitted wrongdoing and the president has and I think that's a very clear distinction. This spectacle is not slowing progress on the mammoth tax reform bill which passed the house. Well thank you very much but faces a less certain future in the senate where tempers are already short this taxcut. Really has not for the middle class for the rich. And I've been here working my host second career. For people who don't have a chance. And I relievers and everybody's saying that I'm just. Doing this for the rich give me a break the all due respect I get sick and tired of the richest regular order here getting rid your card just how many times do we. I got a little tired of that. It would be better with those countries there would have written message that. Will the middle class really benefit from this tax package. We'll talk with budget director Michael Delaney plus Arkansas Republican senator Tom cotton who is pushing a provision and the obamacare mandate in the tax bill. And California democratic congresswoman Jackie speer who is leading the effort to change attitudes in congress about sexual harassment. We'll also have plenty of political analysis it's all coming up on face the nation. Good morning and welcome to face the nation. I'm John Dickerson. Minnesota Democrat Al Franken has stayed out of sight so far this weekend as senators from both parties and Franken himself have called for an ethics investigation into charges that he made unwanted advances. Towards model Leann tween during a 2006. USO trip. As for Roy Moore with the Alabama special elections scheduled three weeks from Tuesday. It will be up to the voters to determine whether or not he'll make it to the senate. We begin with CBS news correspondent dean Reynolds who is in Birmingham team what are the chances that mr. Moore goes to Washington. Well they're not very good John if the Birmingham News has anything to say about it there you see there. Editorial today reject Roy Moore they found him unfit on many levels. Beyond. Just the improprieties. That are alleged with the younger women in his days as a prosecutor. When he was in his thirties. Moreover this editorial endorses Doug Jones his democratic opponent. It is just the latest attempt to block mores path to Washington. Yeah or judge Roy Moore self styled champion of the ten commandments has claimed the support of evangelicals. In his race for the senate but some in that community. We're pushing back this weekend. The reverend Leo barbers that mores worldview made him unfit. Even before the allegations of impropriety emerged. More imagine is the struggle for equality in America. As a story of long. Our European. No one got to ask more about that are much of anything else because he spent much of the week dodging questions. No elaboration on his defiant stance against his women accusers. Scurrilous false. Charges not chargers allegations. Which I have emphatically denied. Time and time again. His lawyers tried to discredit those accusers in one case doubting mores inscription on a woman's yearbook. Around that time she says he attacked her. Release the yerba so that we can determine is it genuine. Or is that a fraud and as his wife said on Friday he's. In for the long ball. He will not step that now. We'll not stop fighting. For the people of Alabama. Well Morse core support is estimated at no more than 30% of eligible voters here they are deeply committed as columnist Steve flowers explain. More people will not fail. That's a Nevada radio guy who lives in the evangelical church he's got decent which will certainly is counter. It's a political cliche but it is true here in Alabama turnout will be everything. Yet few people think the turnout will exceed more than 20% of eligible voters. Which could provide a window of opportunity. For Roy Moore and is very very dedicated followers. John. Dean Reynolds forests in Birmingham thanks to. If Roy Moore does get elected to the senate the next move is up to his senate colleagues we're joined now by one potential Republican colleague senator Tom cotton an Arkansas. Senator cotton I want to talk to about tax reform in a moment but let's not talk about this more situation from moment Cory Gardner when he Republican colleagues. Who's in charge of getting Republicans elected. Said that dead descent should expel more if he wins and is sent to Washington would you support that. Well John first let me take a step back from or more and speak and in general about sexual harassment sexual assault severe serious matter. Has no place in the job no place in our society. I think sadly too many women have faced that over the course of their lives and it's not a partisan issue they are misbehaving man. And both the democratic and Republican parties unfortunately there are. Female victims and of pardons well site and a political matter I mean it's happened in your industry in the media it's happened in Hollywood happens in business. So I think it's important that women feel once they've been subject to sexual harassment and especially sexual assault. That they can come forward now section of the Harvey Weinstein allegations broke about a month ago or so. And that's a good thing that's a good change in the norms and expectations of our society. Source for morgue is I'm not gonna speculate about hypotheticals about what may happen should he win. We're only three weeks out from the election. He made it pretty clear this week that he's not going to step aside so as you said in your intro it's going to be up to the people of Alabama to make that decision. You said you wouldn't encourage people of Alabama to load forum on what's better for senate Republicans if Roy Moore wins and comes to Washington as a Republican or the Democrat wins in the race what's better for senate Republicans was better for the American people is that we focus on the work ahead of us which is a tax bill. The cuts middle class taxes cut taxes on businesses and repeals hated Obama care mandate a limit to the people of Alabama to make the decision amount or more and Doug Johns. But for Reid to Texas me ask you about this norm these norms you're talking about that changed because of this and change historic change in American culture which as you say is going across corporations the media congress. So Al Franken faces a moment now what is the emerging standard in terms of how you assess these accusation comes forward and for somebody. I think it's hard to generalize about all cases in particular and in general because each case is particular different kinds of allegations. Different kinds of conduct different kinds of evidence. I think it's important that we take that issue of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Seriously. And that we take each case on its individual merits and evaluate that carefully. And finally on this an enormous a lot of people said well there were a dozen or so accusers for president trump. Should these norms cause a reevaluation of those who came forward and and and said that he had. Assaulted them more or sit down an appropriate things with him. We'll have in the middle the campaign last year John and the American people have their say on that as well and I think what's important is that we take. All these things seriously and that we move forward and each individual case we have. People who were charged with weighing the evidence where there to court of law and sexual harassment case whether the senate ethics committee is Al Franken has said but sort of generalized. But if it's so in that case it seems to do that position is that the voters spoke. That's it for the president so why would that be the case with more voter speaks and Washington in stunned letter that what. That will be and it's an important decision and the people Alabama all night and again it if he comes to the senate because the people Alabama elect them. And someone files a complaint with the senate ethics committee as they apparently have done with Al Franken and will be up to ethics committee to weigh that evidence and and all of that individual senators. To make a decision based on their findings and recommendations but I wouldn't want to speculate about hypotheticals in the future. Now let's move on to tax reform. Thirteen million people will be without coverage if the individual mandate is removed as you'd like to see in this tax cut plan what happens to those thirteen million. Well John remember what the hated obamacare mandate is it fines. And American family. They can't afford their insurance insurance that Obama care may unaffordable in the first place. So this bill doesn't got a single dime for Medicaid doesn't cut a single dime from insurance and she's doesn't change a single regulation or obamacare it simply says. RS cannot find you if you cannot afford health insurance so this has no impact on anyone who wants to get health insurance under Obama cares. Individual exchanges under the Medicaid expansion under their course plan it simply says. That working families and more Americans because for a five American to pay this fine make less than 151000 dollars. Will no longer be fine for not meal before their insurance. But the estimates is that people won't get insurance then they'll get sick they'll go to and they'll go do. Emergency rooms prices will increase that would premiums will increase also because insurers will be ensuring a secure. Cool people so you've got premiums going up which what's your answer. My answer that is that we need to solve all the problems there obamacare may worsen health care system we worked a matter of a summer we failed I wish that wasn't the case. But we've attacks don't mail that or repeal the most hated and unpopular part of obamacare an individual mandate which is nothing more than tax. On working families and for Americans I hope next year that we return to health care but right now I'm focused on this tax tax bill. But it's also attacks if they're premiums go up and so is that there will be a little bit of a middle class tax cut as far as this tax cut bill bled then won't. If people's premiums go up doesn't that negate the benefits of the tax cut. And no John that's not right so every encumbered. Under the senate bill C a tax cut. Now if you voluntarily choose not to get your insurance through the obamacare premiums than at the federal government will not be paying a tax subsidy. Not do you individually but to an insurance company but that's a result of a voluntary choice that you make based on your own family's needs and. Finances. World the joint communion taxation found that these tax cuts expire in some some middle income people will see their tax cut cut go away. But also Lisa Murkowski seems to have a different view she said it. The tax that is offset by higher premiums you haven't delivered a benefit. So she seems to think that the new removing the individual mandate does have an affected negates the benefit of any tax that is a part of what's. Senators are Murkowski has been a leader on this bill in part part of the bill came out her committee's part that deals with expiration for whirling deaths and the Arctic Circle. She's also said that should have any preconditions on this vote. And he remembered the vast majority of people on the Obama care exchanges are getting subsidies so we get their premiums do go up. They're still gonna get higher subsidies and also let's look at what premiums have happened over the last warriors with the mandate in place they've more than double. Since 2013 their projected go back 37% next year so obamacare is already failing with the mandate. We shouldn't be finding poor people and working American families because they can afford the insurance is don't have so much on. Senator Murkowski does it seem to say she does have a pre condition which is that they the interest seems to be stabilized in order for her to vote on the tax cut and let me ask you one quick question before we go. I'm in the air force general John heighten the head of the US Strategic Command said Saturday he would. Push back on an order from president trump to launch nuclear strikes you on the armed services committee. If he would he would push back on on a nuclear strict that he considered to be illegal what's your take on that. Johnson to Donovan nuclear age we recognize the practical reality that the president has to hold in his hands so decision to use our nuclear weapons if there's a first strike against United States the president has a matter of minutes not hours not days in a matter of minutes to make that decision so it simply doesn't make sense. Have congress involved in the matter. However what we hope to do this bill would deter any country from ever launching that kind of strike against us whether it's North Korea or Russia or China or any other nuclear power. That's one reason why it's so important that president drop. Largely succeeded on his trip to Asia last week to try to put more pressure on Kim Jong on a North Korea not to use of nuclear weapons in the first. Put in a non retaliatory situation your OK with the way the system works in terms of the the president nuclear cuts. Well it's never been that policy in the United States to renounce a first used a nuclear weapons it wasn't president Obama's policy there. I hope that we've never have to import nuclear weapons we haven't deter. But in a non retaliatory. Situation insurer president has hours or days to make it considered deliberate decision. That's why Harris the joint chiefs notorious combatant commanders try a strategic command and his White House staff to help them develop courses of action aren't senator Graham thanks so much you can thank you John. The debate over sexual harassment moved into the halls of congress after California democratic congresswoman Jackie speer went public. With her own experience of unwanted sexual advances as a young Capitol Hill staffer. Spears revelation actually inspired Leann tweeting to come forward with her allegations against senator Franken. This week congresswoman spear introduced legislation in the house aimed at fighting sexual harassment in congress. And she joins us this morning from Palm Springs, California congresswoman I wanna start with something you wrote. You said that it's clear the good old boys club mentality of Capitol Hill still persists after all these years. It is perhaps the worst I've seen in thirty years of working on these issues the old boys club was pretty bad you're saying it's worse now. Well I think it's worse in part because we have a system in place. That allows for the harasser to go unchecked. Doesn't pay for the settlement himself. And has never identified so the Office of Compliance to which and victim must apply it. Our complain. Is a place that has really been an enabler of sexual harassment for these many years because of the way it's constructed. As congress and the larger culture tries to figure out what the standard is for treating accusers who come forward. Something better than what has been where they've been blocked but also something that doesn't allow false accusations how does that standard get determined in your mind. Well first of all we have to make sure that a complaint is. Taken seriously. And at feet. Person who is the victim is not somehow tortured or. Or I'm intimidated into not filing the complaint that's what it is right now in congress are so. One month period where you are counseled them another month where you go through mandatory mediation and you have to sign. A non disclosure agreement at the front end and if that month of cooling off period and that is truly ridiculous it's important for us to remember to John that. Over 90%. Of those who have been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted her telling the truth so. All these victims who have come forward with Roy Moore or with the president. Are without Franken. All of them I think have to be we expect to believe them because for the most part they are telling the truth there's no gain for them to come forward. Winters is lots of downsides frankly. What's your view about reevaluating. The situation you mentioned the president. The White House seems to suggest and senator cotton also seem to suggest that the voters knew about this they voted for him and so it's an issue that's in the past how do you see it. I think there is some truth to that. If the president of running today I bet he would not be elected. Because I think we have had a huge cultural shift. That she is forty years in the making but I think all of us are grateful now that. There is a new day for women in the workplace where they do not have to put up. Where if I'm sexual advances that are on wanted that they do not have to live and work in a hostile work environment. And that's going to be good for our for all of us in the workplace. That as that cultural shift takes place some people have argued some Democrats and liberals have argued that a revaluation of Bill Clinton's presidency is required. Eight what do you think about that in order to to. Be clear about what the new standard is a news you know elements from the past that are that are well known. Well first of all let's remember that he did face impeachment. It wasn't as if it was just toss it aside he faced impeachment. I think that the victims who came forward. Were not treated as they should have then they should have been believed because as I pointed out. Most people who come forward are telling the truth. In the case of Al Franken what's your what's your feeling about that if they're been some columnists who've written basically. Again liberals and said he messed. Leave the senate in order for Democrats to retain their credibility on this issue or else there are opened the charge that. Democrats apply when it comes to Republicans but are are more generous when it comes to their own team. I think it is appropriate for the ethics committee to do an investigation. Senator Franken has actually agreed to that as well. I also think that it has to be determined if there's a pattern of sexual harassment. It's incidents have to be. Severe. Or they have to be ones that happen over a period of time so I think we'll wait and see with the investigation. Determines. Is that an instructive distinction then pattern verses. Specific mistake in terms of what might. Penalize somebody but being the difference between analyzing and expulsion. And that's what the courts have held with sexual harassment cases if there's a pattern. Then you sexual harassment is found to be in existence of its. A one. What the event and it's maybe conversation. Purses you know sexual assault. Or an unwanted sexual advance so it really depends on the circumstances and all of these cases. Final question on a different topic on taxes eleven of your Republican colleagues in California. Voted for the house tax cut bill we know which deductibility of state and local taxes. Is no longer allowed they were told. At least one of them was told what battle gets fixed later and Californians who have high taxes will be able to deduct them. What's your do you believe that. No I don't believe it and I think for all of those members who basically. I'm hats handed their constituents at 101000 dollar tax increase. That's what we're talking about when you take. The state and local taxes and property taxes. And the mortgage deduction is reduced to 500000 dollars is a huge hit for every single California family. Are you congresswoman thanks so much for being with us and we'll be back then went into with white house budget director nick Albany. And we're back with Mick Albanian director of the white house Office of Management and Budget mr. director we start with the individual mandate. That's something the president wants. And it's in the bill now in part in the senate to just make the numbers add up if it was taken out. Would the president be okay with maybe cutting that corporate rate to 22% only down to Tony to make up that money that they need in the senate. No I don't think so. I I don't think anybody doubts for the president is on repeal and replace the White House would love to see obamacare taken apart all at once bit by bit. However we can do it that being said there's a couple of things the president has been very clear on from the very beginning number one. The middle class ordinary Americans working folks have to pay less and it has to be simpler. The number two that corporate tax rate has to be as low as possible racially wanted that 15%. We agreed with the house and Senate Leadership to go to 20% as part of the early discussions here and I don't think you'll see is interest in going above 20%. So I think at the end of the day John what Richardson in his the best tax bill that can pass. It's a good tax bill can pass that obamacare mandate repeals part of it. Great if it needs to come out and reflect the path tax bill to pass we can live without as well. Let me look at in those two things middle class tax cutting corporate tax. There's no question as as you said the president once and it twenty nobody is ever doubted whether corporations are gonna get that reduction to twenty really and all the conversation I've seen on the middle class side though. It's a lot fuzzier it used to be that proponents would say. Everybody in the middle class is gonna get a tax cut but now the joint committee on taxation has shown that about fourteen million because of the sunset provision right in the senate side. They're not gonna get it tax after tax gonna go up. So it seems when you look at the latest is played out corporations are so solid nobody's saying they're not gonna get what they're gonna get but the middle class is not. It's not so solid it's awfully Fuzzy isn't that the reverse of what elected Donald Trump a presence. I think we're just saying there's a source scratching the surface and welcome sort of my world this is the world the office of management budget deals with your now dealing with the world of senate scoring keep in mind. Go back to the beginning of this process and one of the big things have happened was that since the house in the budget house and the senate passed the same budget. They're allowed to use reconciliation to pass this bill in the senate with only fifty votes. In order to do that we give a great deal control to the Congressional Budget Office and I have to say it's scores a certain way. The only reason the only reason John you're seeing these these the middle class tax cut supposedly. Expire after five years apart at least. He's to score in a certain fashions they sort of take this round peg in trying and and shove it into a square hole. No one really wants those things to happen and we think it's good policy becomes permanent just like most the bush tax cuts to. I wanna talk about honey on the other side because those rules are in place for a reason but we got to take a break will be out have more women while raining when we come back statements. We hope you'll join us next Sunday for our Thanksgiving weekend book broadcast this year will explore the issue of leadership in tough times. Including new books on both president on both President Bush is. Union general turned president Ulysses as grant and the nation's 32 president Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Plus a look at a book about the artist Leonardo Da Vinci that's next week here on face the nation. We'll be right back with a lot more face the nation including our conversation with budget director Michael mania on taxes since they let us. Welcome back fascination and more of our conversation with white house budget director mic while remaining. Mr. director and it just button up on that point about this that is arcane senate rules sure those are in place though to force budget discipline and so the people don't say let's get a lot of tax cuts and blow a big hole in the deficit which is one of the huge knocks against this tax cut its size of the debt that it's gonna increase the. They are there also written in 1974 have been changed I don't think it all since then and it's just very difficult to do John it's very difficult to model 120 trillion dollar American economy it's very difficult. To even make the argument that by sold. A hundred of these cups last year at five dollars. And at lower the price to four dollars this year that I won't sell any more of them that's with the CBO scoring does so it is it is an arcane system we think it's broken and doesn't reflect. The real world but we have to play by those rules because they're there. Also that the people are saying and I think you suggested this before the break that essentially if people like the tax cuts they're gonna get you know they're gonna get continued a future congress will do this but that's slightly dishonest because you basically hoping announcing you I'm saying in this general argument. You're basically saying these are gonna continue. Just trust us and also the budget impacts on the deficit again which we you know has an effect on the economy. Those are not being taken into account but you're assuming that these these tax cuts are gonna. Listen if the senate rules were different that everything in this would be permanent horse permit is anything is in Washington DC clearly new government could come in and change the law would go back for example the bush tax cuts which were. Supposedly temporary when they got past. They worked people liked them and they became permanent law which is where we're at least most of the dead which is where we are today so. Again I would confuse things that we do to try and shoehorn into the senate rules with what we think is the best possible policy. Will loudly and. Course there's lot of debate about the bush tax cuts but let's let me ask you this question another of the potential to built on an idea that corporations who live once their tax rates are reduced that they will pass and on essentially to middle class people. Gary -- them White House economic advisor was that a CEO meeting the Wall Street Journal and now posted in end of the audience of CEOs were asking you gonna take these tax cuts and create more American jobs. And so they want a show of hands the hands did not shoot to the ceiling. And and mr. Cohn actually noted that more people. This is the central premise of how this thing's gonna work and there's. Lot now about that. Yeah I ask here about that afterwards my guess is. If I'm them fortune 500 CEO I'm not gonna tell my competitors who are sitting in the in the aisle next it would I'm gonna do next year they're gonna do what's in their best interest in what we think is in the best interest is to invest. Here because not only with a tax rates be lower but they're going to get to expense all of their capital expense is to every new machine that they buy every new factory that they build. They be able to write off immediately against her taxes this is a tremendous. Incentive. Not only folks not to leave the country in the first place but for folks who have left. To come back and that's what we thing is so important in reestablishing that connection. Between corporate success and the success of the ordinary family go back over seventy years before 2008. Every time across the corporation profits went up 1%. Average household income went up by 1% since then. Corporate taxes drop I think 11% and household incomes of are up zero point three we need to reestablish that connection so when companies do well finally do. So that people who are gonna see their taxes maybe go up if this text that doesn't last they've just got to hope the economy turns out behaves the way you want but even senator Johnson from Wisconsin refer Republicans said. To on CNN well I wanna see what I wanna see is the information to prove the economic growth we're going to get so even he's skeptical or Republican is a big fan of a lot of this bill is skeptical about this central theory that's at the. Part of that and senator Johnson as as is sort of honed in on one thing that we knew was sort of the last big substantive piece of the puzzle and that's how do you deal with these. These past two entities S corporations LL season partnerships. They're taxed differently than C corporations and it's in this taxed at the individual levels when you start to lower the corporate tax rate. It's arguably putting us as corporations at a disadvantage and that needs to work out so we senator Johnson's hit on this it needs to get fixed but I'm actually comfortable that it will be. That's gonna cost money that is doesn't cost money let people keep more of their own money cost way to spend money you don't have that's an average all right. Thanks so much for being minister will be right back with a political. We wanna go now to our political panel Ruth Marcus is a columnist and deputy editorial page editor at the Washington Post. David French is a senior writer at the national review. We're also joined by Susan Page Washington bureau chief for USA today. And and O Keefe who covers politics on and Capitol Hill for the Washington Post and is also a CBS news contributor and I'll start with the U what's gonna happen with Roy Moore. You know I intend to lead late in the race. And it doesn't look like Republicans outside of Alabama things really can do anything at this point to compel them to do it. It means it will cause probably political headaches for national Republican throughout the rest of the next year who immediately become a poster boy for. When Democrats would think is wrong. With Washington when the Republican Party. And if Mitch McConnell stretch this past week were true it will lead immediately to an ethics investigation. Of the new senator. Possibly concurrent with the one that would be under way for Al Franken and maybe also one under way for senator Bob Menendez was coming back after the Thanksgiving break from. Federal. Corruption trial so it'll be an interesting year certainly happening right angle transgressions and and you know at this point Republicans just have to. Probably hope that there's nothing else out there that would disturb this even more and yet there are read there's reason to believe that the areas. Had staffers to the senate ethics committee that senator Menendez who is found have a mistrial right this week which is would have triggered the move by McConnell David welcome. What answer the question I've posted time content when it's better for Republicans in when more wins or if he loses it's clearly better if foreign Marlys. Steve Bannon needs to lose Roy Moore needs to Liz and those two are connected right now. If what what people are many people are forgetting is the blow that this would be. Not just stood there Roy Moore side of the GOP which needs to lose but also to the Steve band and enterprise. And trying to destroy the GOP as we know it. He needs to be discredited it in if he helps lose a senate seat in one of the brightest rightist states in the nation. Why would anyone listen to Steve van and ever again and so that's I think an incredibly important potential moment. A party hygiene but we don't know if that's gonna happen yet. And and Susan Mitch McConnell would have a center come senator command who is clearly. Ending a improvisational character. Car and would come in I mean could this get manage the way Mitch McConnell. Thinks it could get managed Dorsey really hoping doesn't have to handle this pro. I'm sure he if he could cast a vote and I think he was born in Alabama actually. Mitch McConnell would not be voting for for a war has assist. Never pointing in one or is not a Mitch McConnell Republican penalties and running thing you know running on a campaign debt and jacked Mitch McConnell from that. From the leadership so in no way is this is is good for mr. McConnell even if it costs him one of those crucial Republican. Senate seats. I think it's I think it's hard to make a call one who's gonna win that race so I mean we do have. Doug Jones the Democrat ahead in some polls but one of the lessons from last year's presidential campaign has. Don't just look at the polls look at who is energized to show up I don't think we know yet. Whether it's diehard wearing war's supporters are people other people in Alabama or disgusted by what they're seeing. And Ruth I mean the Democrats are disgusted but are they gonna turn out in in Alabama and in some ways Democrats are enjoying this moment. Leaving the morality aside and many of them are happy to. To see did Republican Party stuck with a wrong. Sure I think you need to listen to do is look at who is energized but you also need to look at who is discussed in I think there are a lot of Republicans in Alabama. Who. Aren't gonna have roused themselves to go out and vote for the democratic candidate. But who just would prefer to stay home hold their noses and see what happens. Ruth tell us what. We moved out of the historical change happening here across the society and in in Washington respect to Capitol Hill. Namely that moment tell us what moment we're in. I think are in chapter three chapter one was Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas where. Up a lot of people who probably should've known better discovered that there was this problem called sexual harassment in the workplace and yes women didn't always. Go yelling and screaming about it at the exact moment that it happened. A chapter two was Monica Lewinsky Bill Clinton chapter three is now and I think this is probably. The most significant chapter of the ball where we are is we understand that there's a lot of they hate that this behavior is rampant there's a lot of me news. That it's intolerable in the workplace and elsewhere. And that we have not been serious enough about dealing with it where we have what we haven't figured out yet. Is what is the appropriate punishment for each end of it trip for various transgressions and that's what we're grappling with. And and where one of the things are grappling with is Al Franken hit it in the senate amen. What's your sense of there were the blue columnist for slate near times said he must go Democrats lose credibility they're felt like there was some real pressure where is that pressure now on him. I think it's if there's something else either before he was a senator or especially since he became a senator. And that point it's it's just a question of when and if perhaps if this is it. If they have the meaning that the accuser says he asked for and she's agreed to have it goes well. And he commits to an ethics investigation and finds that there's no other reason to believe he's done something inappropriate. You know a cloud will hang over him for the rest of his senate tenure as it has for other senators in the past whatever reason but it Ruth. Actually. Raised an interesting point in her column this week about in to what extent will. Is there the risk that people are potentially over punished for that there's an overreaction to this there have to be changes made. The capital in Howell congress deals of this but. I think there's there's an argument to be made that you know that there could potentially be an overreaction. And and that would add to all the concerns of people had through the years about. You know the scrutiny being too hard on people and keeping them from potentially engaging in public service. Pitched it I think that. Got overreaction here if I I don't think that senator Franken should have to resign based on where we are now but I think it. There is a reasonable hope. While possibility. That that will happen in part because he used the word poster boy before he isn't very unfortunate poster boy. For Democrats that's not good for them to some extent he's coming up if he is forced to resign it will be because he's paying for the under reaction. To Bill Clinton cents in the past and Democrats failure to pay enough attention and yeah. And you talk about kids as being tapped into the fact is worst delivered with the Rivera the reverberations of chapters one and two and and Joseph Biden runs for president. In 20/20 as a tournament hopes to do. We will revisit that they committee hearings he chaired that with senate judiciary for Clarence Thomas were and where it was not taken seriously. And we have continued to see aid reconsideration. Of whether. Democrats. In general and feminist in particular took Bill Clinton charges against both Clinton seriously and. We know what one thing is we keep hearing about line drawing a line drawing I'm single line drawing. In Hollywood party Weinstein is paid a price comes face he's paid a price mean it titles are being yanked down from Netflix I see line drawing in corporate America if evidence like that a dead Els out that sort of graphic out evidence of Al Franken and emerged in any of my private sector workplaces. That person would be gone you know I don't see line drawing in politics. I don't see that politics I'll believe people in politics are taking seriously. This moment when someone ends there career loses their career is let's put it let's let's be honest these fears aren't all that important. Well I can begin be gone tomorrow he's gonna be replaced by another Democrat. In any can't even want to draw a line bin inn index I think the American people look at that say where the lines being drawn in my life are being drawn not politics. And there is also another one thing Donna visitors to the congressman's fear and to senator content seemed to have the same kind of wind for president. For president trump if there's a reevaluation President Clinton. Again towards defining what the norms are in this new situation. I isn't the president of part of that conversation given that there are doesn't accusers and he's present in the United States. Look we have to grapple with a fact that the looks like two of the last four presidents the United States and committed some form of sexual assault. And that's a dreadful. I'm the last person to say that let Donald Trump has been credibly accused of doing by more than a dozen people should be sucked under the rug. The problem we have here and that is only the tiniest percentage of Donald Trump voters believe those allegations are true. It's not that they said yet they're true and I'm voting for me anyway you look at the polling they just flat out don't believe it. And that makes it a very good if it makes it very difficult to hold them accountable in that circumstance you know we also if talk about line driver about a big culture shift to shift toward believing a women. It against celebrity accusers. Are prominent accusers I'm not sure we've yet seen a culture shift for women who work at Wal-Mart are work clean hotel rooms. Our work on factory floors who are subject to the same kind of abuses that women who work in law firms and on Capitol Hill. Are subject to that would be a real culture shift. And his interest Sarah Huckabee Sanders said at the White House essentially to testing Franken and and president trump is that and Al Franken admitted it so we is is the line basically what what signal does that send if you're a politician. I'm supposed to respond to these allegations. A well if you can get you know if you can say if you're a star they let you get away with that the president is in a very difficult position here because. His first attitude towards Roy Moore was if then if he did at any Astor. As I now his own daughter has said I believe these women. He is dubbed. Leader of the other leader of this party Mitch McConnell said I believe as women. If he said he. Can't say I believe them because that raises the question. If we believe them why shouldn't we believe. The women who are accusing you I think that's a really tough question for him to answer the amazing thing is instead of kind of trying to duck and cover and avoid this. He went out and characteristically made his life more difficult by tweeting about Al Franken. Well inside as a chance to hit Franken also hit the clintons by believing the accusers of Bill Clinton and bringing them to the debate he did last year yes absolutely now it's it's it's a really tricky situation for Republicans who I think. Understand that this is. You know he's talking out of both sides of his mouth I think but to took credit Mitch McConnell. He began this week by a very clearly saying I believe the women. He wants one more to avoid getting senate seat he wants to do everything can stop them from coming but the fact of the most senior member of congress said that. Or a senior member of congress that it very clearly I everyone else the fall in the place allowed the Franken thing to do that with so quickly I think that it's a key part of chapter three. As we go forward that we saw such a senior political leaders do that are we're gonna close the book on this chapter and we will be back in a second with another chapter we'll talk about tax cuts and earnest with our panel stimulus. Back with our panel at Daytona start on the tax cut question with you which is often in Washington when we have these cultural moments. Everybody gets boxed up and nothing gets done the tax can bill is moving likeliest slip through congress right you know moving like he split through congress and a lot of people or have been down on for a long time for doing nothing particularly on the right side of the aisle at. Look I I'm optimistic something's gonna get done here and there's enormous pressure from every wing of the GOP. The GOP civil war is this kind of settled on this one point there's a need for tax reform. So I didn't think something's gonna happen and do you think what we're gonna get while it's not exactly going to be the senate bill is not an exactly going to be the house bill. Is going to be something better than the status quo. What that's exactly going to be yet we don't know. We've kind of you care about budgets and. It better than the status quo for real. Is one thing I liked it I think that the prognosis for this bill is really interesting. That every Republican lawmaker that I know is desperate to see something passed. But there are two problems here one is that they are not desperate to they don't know all agree on what that something is and so there are we views of ruby it's you. Analogy before this is like super Rupp excuse there're so many pieces that you can lose somebody on and that. Senate majority is very slam and the house majority is complicated because of that state and local tax deduction. And that I have the question I understand they're desperate the pass it because they have done nothing else legislatively. They're gonna just have to run on but of course such. Supreme Court nominee would she lose. Wait if he was created overnight but it had to go through with the congressional review I gag gag out OK I don't think that's. Rate the greatest messaging. Buy it if they pass it is that great news for Republicans may be better than the alternative but there's going to be a lot of democratic messaging. About hits to the middle class and favoring. Corporations. With permanent tax cuts over the middle class many of whom will be worse off at the end of. Do you think that's right Suzanne there's Democrats see an opportunity didn't rush in and say wait a middle class tax cuts expire for fourteen million this can't you know it. Do they have an opportunity on this. Well what they do since they can argue for instance that they. Did the truck ramming a long could benefit to the tune of more than one million dollars. If this if this if this particular tax bill passes that there's another problem and that is the number twelve. That is the number of full legislative days left from now to the end of the year when they also need to. Fund the government which runs out of money and a separate they need to deal with hurricane relief. So it will in fact be look at these split as you said if they managed to some thing by the end by the White House deadline of of Christmas. To give tax bill through and if they manage that it will be because they're so interest in passing something. That they won't care about exactly what it is surpass half. They get something out of that senate at least by Christmas because otherwise if this Roy Moore thing doesn't turn out the numbers in the senate will change will lose one Republican senate candidate senator and that. There are at least two run Johnson Lisa Murkowski in the senate side who have who have really issues with this tax bill aren't they. Rick is that the real opposition or is that the kind of opposition gets and it's you're thinking affect. I'd actually tweak it insane run Johnson for sure based on some consummate this morning Susan Collins action probably still has some legitimate. Concerns Murkowski is. Point was just that we we need to stabilize the markets it's not can health insurance right this bipartisan bill by Lamar Alexander in January. Profits clarify later Friday. Despite some comments you made earlier in the day. Is in contingent on her support for the tax bill but she's expressing concern right that's certainly some of Republican colleagues have. I would watch more the people the Republican senators who are concerned about things like that deficit. That is Bob Corcoran that if Jeff flake that is probably Brian Johnson. And then secondarily whether or not this includes. Changes to the individual mandate there you lose Susan Collins may be Lisa Murkowski and if the thing is happening to it can split. You may lose John McCain who has been arguing that this has to be done methodically and fairly to both sides he says that last week's deliberations in the so I'm perfectly. In that regard can I jump in on the deficit I can't. Screaming he tired in the deficit. Cut nice hot if one point we're gonna pass this but we're gonna be fiscally responsible because it's going to be only one point five trillion. The budget director make clear to you in his comments that that is not the intention at all the intention is to eventually make these tech at individual tax cuts permanent. To the tune up closer to. Over to 2.2 trillion dollars the church if you think that your fiscally responsible so that you can only Florida one point five trillion dollar tax cut. You should not vote for this because everybody is saying it's gonna cost more than that. David did it give me a sense of two things one what reassess what happened to them fiscal hawks but then secondly you mentioned Steve Bannon in the people he supports and the kind of I'm core of the trump message right. How does this tax bill lineup with him that corporations are gonna go down to 20% to daycare or today by any argument for term. Today I'm in the camp that believes that this trump populism thing. Is not really a meaningful ideological movement in that dent in the Republican Party. Trumpets and is the personal ambition of Donald Trump that's trumpets okay. This populism has always been a relatively small slice of the GOP high. We're not looking in the bigs political sea change here. And hit that dipped people who make up trumps base are very are far more concerned with the perception that Donald Trump the succeeding. Then we are with any given line item of the quote unquote trump agenda. So I think that there were bottom line analysis they hear it's does trump help get tax reform passed. If the answer is yes magnet. If the answer is no. Then well you know it's mentioned Paul Ryan it's not trump. That alternately received the the Blaine Trump world that I think that we've gotten down to a sort of a post ideological age in some ways when it comes to. The success of Donald Trump where the most important thing is perceived by his fans as the successor Donald Trump. Megas any recourse to make America great again for anyone who doesn't know that Susan Page 16% in a quinnipiac poll thought they were gonna get a tax cuts here with David says. About the trump voter rings true from the from voters I've talked to what about the rest of the country. Well I think the stacks Willis a tough sell. For the rest of the country especially because some of the arguments of proponents are making are so easily disproved. You know for instance the idea that. That repealing the estate tax is gonna help farms and small businesses. This year eighty farms and small businesses are affected by the estate tax. Is an aria that you know the estate tax benefits the wealthiest Americans. That only five south there. So who get caught the estate tax so I think that the idea that the the reality of the tax cut helps the rich. At the expense raising taxes over the long term effort being cameras we'll 30000 is something that makes good good definitely for Republicans are we gonna go will be back in a moment. Today's guest was senator Tom cotton congresswoman Jackie spear and OMB director of national fame. Executive producer of face the nation is Mary Hager continues producers are Jill Jackson is an ad for an excellent. Broadcast was directed by Brian Nelson destination originates from CBS news Washington. For more face the nation where on line at face the nation dot com. 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